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Question about reloading 410 brass shotshells

12K views 12 replies 7 participants last post by  oyeme 
#1 ·
I am reloading brass 410 cases I made from 303 British with Alliant 2400 powder, a 0.135 cardboard over-powder wad, a dry 3/8" thick unlubricated felt wad, and 1/2 oz. of lead shot in a home made plastic shot capsule as pictured below. This load I am using works very well in my Stevens Model 58B; but this shotgun is chambered for 3 inch and I would like to try a longer shot capsule with 3/4 oz. of shot. My question is that I have read that when working up a new load I should keep an eye on the velocity to know when I am approaching a maximum powder charge. Is this reliable? How would I chronograph these things without blowing my chrony apart? Or is there another way to read pressure signs with these brass cases made from 303 British? I am an experienced long time reloader for rifle cartridges but not so much with shotgun. Thank you for any help.

 
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#3 ·
I am reloading brass 410 cases I made from 303 British with Alliant 2400 powder, a 0.135 cardboard over-powder wad, a dry 3/8" thick unlubricated felt wad, and 1/2 oz. of lead shot in a home made plastic shot capsule as pictured below. This load I am using works very well in my Stevens Model 58B; but this shotgun is chambered for 3 inch and I would like to try a longer shot capsule with 3/4 oz. of shot. My question is that I have read that when working up a new load I should keep an eye on the velocity to know when I am approaching a maximum powder charge. Is this reliable? How would I chronograph these things without blowing my chrony apart? Or is there another way to read pressure signs with these brass cases made from 303 British? I am an experienced long time reloader for rifle cartridges but not so much with shotgun. Thank you for any help.

1 - if the gun is 3 inch, that is the MAX length of the fired cartridge, including anything protruding from it.

2 - You do NOT work up loads; you find a load and produce it - this is NOT metallic .

3 - You set your chornograph with skyscreens 5' from the muzzle and shoot above the centerline - I haven't done any damage to mine with my 12 gauge reloads using that method.

4 - No, no other way except for your gun being in pieces. (see #2)
 
#5 ·
Hey all
Frank Barnes covers this cartridge in "Cartridges of the World" 10th Edition. It is the Swiss 10.3 x 65R in the European Sporting Rifle Cartridges. Nothing more than a 2 1/2 inch brass .410 Shotgun shell, but the rim has been thickened. According to Barnes the loading was a lead or soft nose bullet of 285 to 290 grains driven at 1625-1785 fps. I assume from this that the correct length of the standard .410 shell at the time was 2 1/2.
Best of luck with your reloading experiment,
 
#6 ·
Here's an article by Ed Harris about doing this exact thing.

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2014/07/ed-harris-how-to-make-and-load-all-brass-410-shotshells/

Ed Harris is back with another of his terrific articles! This time, it's about making your own all-brass shotshells in .410.
(If you're not familiar with Ed Harris, you should be. Ed is one of the best sources of technical information in the shooting world, and he's always doing something interesting. His articles are always popular, and today he shares with you how to make and load shotshells for your .410 shotgun using brass rifle cases!)
How to Make and Load All-Brass .410 Shotshells
by C.E. "Ed" Harris

I thought a brief how-to-do-it on loading all-brass .410s would be helpful. I've successfully done some of this, years ago fire-forming from .303 British, as well as 9.3x74R German and more recently using Magtech .410 all-brass shells from Midway, which is MUCH easier. Load data, wads and assembly/crimping technique are a bit different from using modern plastic shells and wads.

In break-open shotguns, all-brass cases can be made easily by fire-forming from .303 British brass, which is still cheap and plentiful. Charge the case with ten grains of any fast-burning pistol or shotshell powder you have handy. Almost anything you have will work. Push a cotton ball or wadded up square of TP down firmly onto the powder, fill the case to the shoulder with Cream of Wheat, then press a Gulf wax plug into the case mouth. Fire-form the case, pointing the muzzle straight up. The resulting case is 2.25″ in length. Cases should fire-form perfectly without splits on the first pop if they are either new, unfired, or have been mouth annealed first. Old .303 cases which have been reloaded as rifle rounds several times absolutely must be annealed first!

(A quickie on how to anneal rifle brass which works for this application: )

With Magtech 2-1/2" brass use 15.4 grains of #2400 powder, a Buffalo Arms .44 vegetable fiber 1/16" card over the powder, then two Buffalo Arms .44-45 wool felt cushion wads , LIGHTLY oiling the top cushion wad only, applying TWO DROPS of 30 weight motor oil with an eye dropper, squishing the wad between the fingers a few times to work it in, then wrapping the wad in a square of TP, squeezing it again between the thumb and forefinger to wick out and absorb any excess oil. This greatly reduces leading if you load birdshot directly, without using the Federal No.410SC shot cup.

A .45 Schofield case holds about half an ounce of lead shot, if you want to make a dip-cup . Fill the case to within 1/8" of the case mouth with fine shot, 7-1/2 or smaller. Insert another 1/16" card as an overshot wad, and glue in place with Elmer's Glue. You more shot in the case by using the old fashioned card and fiber wad column, but my cylinder-bore gun throws better patterns using the Federal No.410SC (1/2 oz. Skeet) shot cup over the card, pouring the shot into that and closing the shell by crimping (or gluing with Elmer's) a .36 cal. card inside the top of the shot cup, as shown in the photo.

If you have a Lee .38-56 Winchester seater die, you can make a finished-looking crimp by inserting a blank Lyman 450 sizer top punch into the seater die plug, adjusting the seating stem to position the top card, (use a .44 cal. to fit the all-brass shell, or a .36 cal. to fit inside the Federal shot cup when using that one). You want the overshot card slightly below the case mouth, as you bump the case mouth against the die shoulder to form a nicely rounded, professional-looking crimp.

To load buckshot, charge powder in the primed case, insert a card firmly over the powder, as you did before. Use a Federal No.410SC plastic shot cup to contain and center the buckshot. It is absolutely necessary to use an over-powder card under the Federal plastic shot cup in brass cases, because the wad diameter is too small to seal the case interior. Omitting the card results in powder leaking past the wad, causing "bloopers." After firmly seating the Federal No.410SC plastic wad column against the over-powder card, drop four 00 buckshot into the shot cup, then add one SOFT cast ..395"roundball on top of the stack. Adjust the .38-56 seater so the top ball is crimped neatly, but positively in the end of the shell.

The 1951 Ideal Handbook provides data with #2400 powder for .410 shells with conventional wad columns, which is appropriate. It also suggests thickness of the filler wad(s) should be not less than 1/2 bore diameter and not more than bore diameter. Minimum filler wad thickness in the 410 bore is 0.205 inches. A .444 Marlin sizer die with Lee No.5 shell holder can be used to resize brass cases if necessary. Prime cases with large pistol primers. The RCBS Little Dandy Rotors #19 measures the appropriate charge of Alliant #2400. Thumb an over powder card into case mouth and slide firmly onto the powder using a dowel. Similarly seat the filler wad(s), or plastic shot cup, if used. Add shot and top card or buckshot. Glue top card or crimp, if a suitable die is available. That's all there is to it.

(The opening picture shows features two all-brass .410s, one with birdshot, another with buckshot, with .44-40 cartridge for comparison.)
 
#7 ·
If anyone is interested, here is how I make my shot capsules:



I cut rectangles of plastic from used milk jugs as pictured above.


This is the tool I made to form the shot capsules (as well as pack the wads in the case).



Wrap the plastic around the rod and hold it in place with a section from a discarded brass 410 case. (Made from one that split the neck when fireforming.) Set the end of the steel rod 1/8" below the mouth of the brass case. Then heat the end of the plastic extending beyond the brass with a microtorch for a few seconds until it turns transparent. (It doesn't matter if it ignites.) Then with a small wooden stick fold the hot plastic into the mouth of the brass. Quickly slide the brass out another 1/4 inch beyond the melted plastic, then push the whole thing straight down onto a hard flat surface for a few seconds until it solidifies. Now remove the steel rod and you are left with the capsule inside the brass that has one end already closed. Pour the measure of loose shot into the open end of the capsule. (I then drop on top a thin 3/8" dia. overshot wad punched out from the same plastic.) Finally heat the open end of the plastic capsule, fold it over and press it onto a hard surface as before.



The final product looks like this.



These are the remains of the capsules after firing.

 
#12 ·
That is just too cool! I recently acquired a .410 double and was able to get some ammo but worry what will happen when I am out of those. Your shells/cartridges are very ingenious!

As for pressure testing, I would inquire with Tom Armbrust and see if he can pressure test .410 also. He does all the other gauges and is very reasonable at $5/ with a minimum lot of 5. Let us know what he says.


Tom Armbrust,
Ballistic research and testing
1108 W. May Ave, McHenry, IL
60050-8918.
815-385-0037
. http://www.armbrust.acf2.org.
 
#8 ·
A lot of rifle shooter's swear they can tell pressure by velocity. Hog wash I think. if you have five different rounds loaded the same and there's a 15 foot per sec spread in velocity, what's the pressure of the load? If you want to check pressure, you really should get the proper tools to do it with. In the op's case I would think it is vital. He took a brass rifle case and reformed it to a brass 410 shell and then made a home made plastic shot cup! And in the end has no way to measure pressure other than velocity! I suspect you could come close that way but if something goes wrong what then? Buy something to test pressure with.
 
#9 · (Edited)
Hello. New here and have some comments and questions. I'm a long time shooter and reloader and a good shot with rifles and handguns but a mediocre shot with shotguns. I've just never had the eyesight for moving targets. :geek:
I recently bought some 2 1/2" brass shotgun shells from Rocky Mountain Cartridge LLC in .410 bore and 20 and 12 gauge to make varmint/home defense loads.
They're not cheap and because RMC is a small mom, pop, and son operation it takes a while to get an order but the finished product is beautifully and unlike Magtek products they use standard size wads and other components. The shells are machined from solid brass stock so they're also heavier and have thicker walls then Magtek shells.
Using Ed Harris's article as a base line I loaded up some .410 shells using three 80gr 36 cal (.375) soft lead round balls for buckshot loads and two 158gr 38 cal (.358) soft lead wad cutters for slug loads. Between each ball or slug I used a card punched from thin cardboard to cut down on distortion.
The powder charge was 10gr of Hodgdon Lil' Gun powder covered by a thick nitro card with a 1/2" fiber wad on top of the nitro card to get the finished height that I wanted. Over these I used a Claybuster 410HS shot cup which holds both the round ball and slugs snugly in place and just reaches the rim of the shell.
I won't be crimping these brass shells so for smaller diameter shot, ball, or slugs I'll use buffer of some sort and an overshot card glued into the end of the shell to hold everything in place.
Shot through my grandson's Spanish made (Zavala Hermanos) side by side these loads had a very mild recoil and were quite accurate up to about 20 yards. At that distance the spread of the round ball load was 3" and the slugs were side by side in a 2" group with no evidence of tumbling. Over 25 yards, the max distance we shot from, the round ball spread widened to about 5" and the slugs started to tumble but both loads still went right through a 2X6 plank.
Since these loads are for close range shooting the intention is to maintain a good pattern while controlling over penetration. I don't want blow a door off its hinges SWAT loads; just something capable of stopping a varmint or intruder at close range.
I'm a low tech old fart so I'm going to set up some water soaked catalogs and phone books or multiple 2X6 boards to capture the projectiles so I can see what kind of expansion is happening and just how far they're penetrating. Hopefully the soft lead will expand rapidly with a max penetration of 10 to 12 inches.
All in all I'm happy with these .410 loads and now will try out some zinc plated F size shot. Next on the list is to make up some 20 and 12 gauge heavy shot, round ball, and slug loads using Red Dot or other standard smokeless powders. I also have several pistol powders that can be used for shotgun reloading.
The main problem I'm running into is finding smokeless powder load data for brass shells. Most of what I've come across is for black powder which though fun to shoot, I sometimes use it in my 45/70, is a PIA to clean up afterward.
Any proven load recipes or advise would be greatly appreciated. For the time being I'm thinking of using heavy shot (pheasant-duck) load data for 2 3/4" shells and start with less load weight and lighter powder charges.
Ride Safe. Dr.Tramp........
PS: I cast my own bullets and round balls. For regular shotgun shells I use MEC 600 Jr presses and standard load recipes and plastic shells. For rifle and handgun reloading I use a RCBS Rock Chucker press.
I haven't hunted in years and can rarely hit a clay but I still enjoy trying.
 
#13 ·
I recently was given a couple of flats of .410 shells made by SAGA of Lleida, Spain. I had not heard of SAGA before.

They were given to me because the owner had gotten them real cheap at a big SC shoot and could not hit the ground with them! I shot 50 of them and was struggling also, but with a new gun and with SC targets not set for a .410, I was not upset. Besides the price of $0 was perfect!

They are 2.5 inch, brass base and roll crimped with over shot card. I dissected one and found some interesting components and one was a cushioned plastic wad! Never seen one of those sold in US by any maker! See picture below. I think the reason my friend was having so much trouble was that the shot weight was .4 ounces! That light shot charge was undoubtedly needed due to the space taken by the cushioned wad.

The box indicates 11 for load weight and 11 grams is .388 ounces and on my scale weighed .4 oz! No wonder we had our difficulties hitting with these shells!!!

The other negative to these shells is that due to no shot column protective sleeve, they produce a lot of leading in the bore but that is not too difficult to remove with the right brush wrapped with a Frontier .45 pad material.

A very unusual shell with limited capabilities. No idea what the velocity is, but could be normal 1,200 fps since it is such a light shot charge. All & all, I think the price I got them for was appropriate!! ;)





 
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